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Would you like to play ethicist with 4 cases?

I present here 4 cases and would like to challenge our astute Medpedia readers to play ethicist, if they are not one already, and suggest what additional facts, if necessary, should be obtained and then what conclusions could be reached? Does anyone want to give my challenge a try? ..Maurice.


1. A 65 year old conscious man on a ventilator for life support tells the doctor, by writing a note, that he wants the ventilator turned off. The doctor knows that if she turns off the ventilator the patient will die in a few minutes. What further information would you need to know in order to advise the doctor whether what is requested by the patient is ethical and legal?

2. A baby born 6 days ago without a brain but with a brain stem that is allowing the baby to breathe and maintain blood pressure has developed pneumonia. The mother insists that the doctor treat the pneumonia. The father wants the doctor to allow the child to die. What would you recommend to the parents and the doctor?

3. Two children one age 5 and the other age 7 were born with a genetic disorder which limits their life to less than 15 years. The mother is again 2 months pregnant and asks the doctor for advice as to what to do. However, the doctor holds moral views and by religion is against abortion. What would you advise how the doctor should respond to the mother?

4. A father brings into the emergency room his 3 year old child for a bloody nose but is found by the doctor to have a fresh bruise on the left buttock and right shoulder. What facts should the doctor know before breaking patient confidentiality rules and report these findings to governmental authorities as suspected child abuse?
asked Mar 13, 2010 at 07:14PM in Other
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    answered Mar 20, 2010 at 03:17AM
    Case 1 is an easy one: if the patient is legally considered a mentally normal person, able to understand the situation, to oversee consequences and to express his will, then it is forbidden to treat hem against his will. It would be unlegal to continue the ventilator. So, it has to stop.

    Case 2: we differentiate between a) the will of the parents and b) the medical usefullness of treatment.
    a) when there is ambiguity, I tend to follow the parent who wants to keep some one alive. I do so, because the pain of seeing a loved one left to die against your will, seems to me a deeper pain, than seeing a loved one being kept alive although you would favor otherwise.
    b) treating the pneumonia, to me would be medically meaningless. So, I would advise against it. Let me clarify: I am against all forms of euthanasia -which puts me in the 6 % of doctors in the Netherlands that is against it under all circumstances-. But I'm also very much opposed to medical treament that does not make sense. In part, this has largely magnified the call for euthanasia later on. If possible, don't create your own problems.

    Case 3. I am against abortion as well. So, I would state in advance that I cannot help her with regard to that, if this were an issue. But this being clear, I would offer time for exchange and support, also support after the third child would have been born. Besides, no one knows if a life, limited in advance to 15 years, is less meaningful.

    Case 4. I am an emergency doctor. Suspicion itself suffices. But in between me and the 'govermenetal authorities', there is the pediatrician or a special team to further check suspicious cases. So I would inform them and they would investigate the child and home situation.
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    answered Mar 20, 2010 at 06:33PM
    My comment to Johannes and may I add a bit more to the case:

    Case 1: Suppose the man on a ventilator for life support is actually a quadriplegic (which would not be a rare coincidence!!) and requests the attending physician to turn off the ventilator because his life was continuing to be intolerable to him. He is physically unable to perform the act himself. The quadriplegic understands that this action would cause his death. What if the attending physician is unwilling to "pull the plug" since the physician would consider this action as, if not assisted-suicide, virtually euthanasia (killing instead of "letting die") for which the physician finds morally abhorrent and not, for him, an establish professional responsibility? For the same reason, the physician is unwilling to write an order for someone else to shut off the ventilator since he considers that order aiding and abetting. Also he knows that before the ventilator is turned off, he would be responsible for ordering or administrating a sedative to reduce any terminal symptoms, again being part of the act. If the physician came to you as a clinical ethicist and asked you if the physician's decision to say "no" to the patient's request was ethical and legal and then asks you "what can I do?" How would you respond? ..Maurice.
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    answered Mar 21, 2010 at 01:36PM
    Dear collegue, dear Maurice,
    There really is not an ethical dilemma here, in Case 1. It is against the law to treat a patient, who is able to decide etc, against his will. This patient does not want this treatment. If the physician cannot live with that, he has to be taken off the case. There is no longer a patient-doctor relationship. If the physician would object, a legal complaint has to be made, as the doctor is committing a crime. At least, such is the case in the Netherlands. This may well be part of the declaration of human rights, too, that patients have the right to refuse treatment. And, within medical ethics: there is no longer an informed consent here. So, whatever perspective we take: treatment -the ventilator- has to stop.

    With regard to Case 2, I did have some extra thoughts: John Lorber published a paper, some decades ago: "Do we really need the brain?". The paper described three (if I remember the number correctly) severely hydrocepahlic adults. There was just a slice of cortical tissue somewhere near the base of the skull; the rest was water (that is to say: CSF). Yet, one of them lectured mathematics and the other ones were of similar cognitive function. So, that's my only doubt in Case 2: if there is a small chance that this baby might be like Lorber's cases, than treatment is medically meaningful and should be given.

    Sincerely, Johannes Schilder
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    answered Mar 21, 2010 at 02:04PM
    With regard to case 1, I would agree that the attending physician can be presented with the option to terminate the doctor-patient relationship if what the patient is asking the physician to do the physician considers morally wrong. California law would support such an action and the moral basis for the action. However, every physician leaving a case must make an active and honest attempt to find another physician to take over the case and respond to the patient's request. Otherwise, leaving the patient without that could represent abandonment.

    In case 2, I doubt that an anencephalic infant with zero cortical brain tissue can be compared to an infant with hydrocephalus whose cortical tissue, as I understand it, is compressed but present. I am not sure how their potential for brain function can be compared. But let's say that the infant's pathology is such that no awareness nor intellectual brain function will ever be present and that, as with anencephalics, the infants life span is severely limited. How does the ethicist resolve the conflict between the mother's and father's separate philosophy and needs? What does the clinical ethicist have to do? What options are available? ..Maurice.
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    answered Mar 21, 2010 at 03:58PM
    It is not the doctor who terminates the relationship, it is the patient who does so. And if the doctor would not leave, he is acting against the law, by continuing treatment against the patient's will. The patient is to report to the legal authoraties, that the doctor insults his physical integrity. Finally, the doctor is to be imprisoned, because he commits a crime. This is not an ethical issue, it is a legal one.

    Case 2, with the extra's you mention, is back to my first answer.
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    answered Mar 21, 2010 at 07:07PM
    With regard to Case 1, of course a patient can discharge a physician anytime the patient desires. No physician will continue treatment without the patient's consent since that could represent legal battery. But when the patient initiates the break in the relationship because the physician will not act as the patient desires, the physician would not be expected to continue the relationship against the patient's will. The physician's leaving in this situation does not represent abandonment. In this case, however,I still would expect the physician to be humanistic enough to attempt to help to find the patient a replacement physician though the physician wouldn't be required by law to do so.

    I also must point out in Case 2 and all the cases, if one is playing the role of a clinical ethicist, a clinical ethicist faced with a clinical ethical conflict, the personal biases or personal moral or religious views of the ethicist must not be an element in the mediation of the conflict between stakeholders or in the facilitation of the decision to be made by the stakeholders themselves. What I am saying is that whether the ethicist personally agrees or disagrees about issues such as abortion, euthanasia, homosexuality or any other controversial issues has no part in the consultation effort by the ethicist. The responses of the ethicist must be based on the facts provided and the principles of ethical analysis, ethical consensus and the current laws. Ethicists are not physicians (even if they have an M.D. degree) nor are they one of the stakeholders in a conflict. They cannot make their own medical diagnosis or prognosis but listen to physicians who have that capacity. They cannot be a patient advocate as may be the physician, nurses or family. In answering the challenge of this Medpedia question, in each of the 4 cases, this understanding of the capacity and role of the ethicist should be kept in mind. ..Maurice.
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    answered Mar 23, 2010 at 03:38AM
    With regard to case 1: you came up with the point of abandonment (by the doctor), I've only commented upon it.
    In the mean time, I have realised that the conlfict would go different. if the patient refuses ventilation, he is very likely to have refused iv fluids already. So, after the last bag has emptied, it will no longer be replaced and death will ensue in some days.
    Along a different line of thought: if the patient wants the ventilator to stop and to die accordingly, iv fluids have become a medically meanigless treatment and could be stopped along that way as well.

    With regard to one's stance: I quote Hope saying that medical ethics is "giving reasons for the view you take". In giving reasons in Case 2, one reason is that a particular pain seems larger than another pain. Inevitably, this hits how we -as doctors, as ethicists, as human beings- feel. 'To me, the pain of seeing someone die, by voluntary act, seems worse than the pain of somone being kept alive by voluntary act. In a committee, we would inquire if there was agreement on such a prioritising of pain. You do the same, by inviting us to look at these cases.

    Sincerely, Johannes Schilder
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    answered Mar 23, 2010 at 08:19AM
    In response to Johannes last comment regarding treating or not treating the anencephalic child, to some, the decision to watch death to occur is a severe emotional pain and to others it represents a great relief. But for the clinical ethicist, the duty is not to weigh one feeling above the other as more ethical but to understand that both feelings are worthy of attention and that the goal of the ethicist is to help the parties with conflicting feelings to arrive at some decision they can live with. For example, the mother and father, after meeting with the ethicist, might decide to have the infant treated energetically for a week but if there is no improvement to stop and let nature take it's course. Thus, despite whether the ethicist has one feeling or the other regarding watching the infant die, the ethicist will have performed his or her duty by bringing the surrogates closer together so that they, not the ethicist, can exercise their responsibility to make the final decision. ..Maurice.
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    answered Mar 24, 2010 at 06:56AM
    OK... Johannes
  • 0
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    answered Mar 24, 2010 at 07:34PM
    Johannes, your conclusion to Case 3 ("no one knows if a life, limited in advance to 15 years, is less meaningful") is certainly valid. Without additional information regarding the genetic characteristics of the disorder nor whether the current fetus is even affected, it is hard to respond to this made-up case. This is an example where in a clinical situation the ethicist really can't advise the physician unless the physician as well as the ethicist knows all the pertinent clinical facts. If the parties involved have inadequate information regarding the disorder itself and no information regarding the genetic status of the fetus, the ethicist cannot provide answer the physician's concerns regardless of the physician's views about abortion. One of the facts would be what the woman was told and then understood as the nature of the genetic disorder affecting both her living children. What information gave her comfort or motivation for a second pregnancy and then with the resultant two children with the disorder led her to a third pregnancy? Ethical decision making is not automatic and still requires facts. ..Maurice.
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